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Timeliner feedback and Requests ;)

vvvv beta feature
#1

So I’m curently using timeliner to script a performance, and lots of things I’m really happy with, but some things are troublesome!
the tick for the automata is easy to hit by accident, I’ve done it more than once deleting all my markers…
An undo, would be nice too!
a key for snapping to events/frames (this would require a setting of a frame rate for quantising too, I’m not suggesting frame rating the actual timeline)currently dragging the keyframes is too random, you have to type in a time realy to get things lining up.
A marker track would be great too, for example in premiere and after effects hitting the * keying while playing drops a marker where the play head is, I’ve been trying to use set patch to add automata keys, but it doesn’t seem to work, maybe its just my bad patching, seeing the difference between ’ and " is tricky, especialy as this pc doesn’t make a ’ until you press the key twice and then you get 2, dont ask me why! :S
I’ve asked this before, but keys to step between key frames, or markers, or automata keys for skipping through the track would be good, my timeline is 17 minutes long, with 6 speparate tracks in.
Being able to place the playhead a specific place and have the key frames you dragging snap to it when within a certain distance would be great (while keeping other selected frames in their relative positions)
Of course being able to record in might mean many of these requests wouldn’t be needed ;)
Given the last update was in 2009, maybe none of this will happen, but it would be great to be able to do this!

cat

#2

ahh just read the page, and there were some keys I hadn’t remembered, i was on site with no internet…

#3

ai cat, so can you recap which of the things you’re still missing after you read TimelinerSA again?

#4

Hi Joreg,
Undo
Just thought of one more, a lock, so you can’t move keys you’ve set and dont want to change, on a per track, or better, per slice basis, speaking of which, being able to name slices would be nice, maybe in the background of the track, although I could just use separate tracks rather than slices per object.
ooo and another ;) a mode where the timeline scrolls but the curser stays still, like in some audio software, or at least when it gets to the end of the window scrolls to the start, so you can see whats coming…

Tick for automation should have, an are you sure, so you don’t delete your keys by accident… although the undo would help there too…
I’m just updating things now with my own * key and manual key frame dropping, but a realtime marker drop, or automata key with default to next, would be really good.
Record values in :)
I think the X’s are in general a bit too big and easy to hit, but again the undo would make that less of an issue
Personally I’d prefer left click to move in time, right to move in value, and middle to do both, as generally either you know the value you want but want to move it in time, or its in the right place and you just need to move its value, both at the same time is less useful, but that might just be me? I’m sure I could get used to it…
Control and drag to snap to keyframes is a bit broken with multiple keys selected, mostly when dragging -time and having clicked on the most +time frame to move then , but moving + time, and they loose their spacings a bit too, clicking on the most -time key, works better…
hehe is that enought :)
I am liking it though, its a bit more straight forward than controlling from a lighting desk as I’d usually do :)
I think I’ll start using txt and colour keys for track breakups etc.
Thanks again for your hard work!

Cat

#5

Hehe, and some more…
copy and paste of keyframes, and control should snap to the time marker too, if not with all keyframes, then with the automata frames.
It would be nice to be able to drag the various tracks up and down in the stack too, if you have a lot, being able to see the track that your lining up to, automata or another…
Don’t worry I’ll be done programming the show soon :) The requests should slow then, unless I’ve found a new toy, in which case they’ll keep coming! I’ve already thought of some other situations, it would be useful in though!
cat

#6

hi,
adding some request here :)

in my last project using the great Timeliner
i’ld like to have an output pin with all the automata string names not just the active one.
and dunno if it’s possible : the ability to Ctrl-select or alt de-Select values on different tracks not just the standard mouse selection (which doesn’t work properly when click select + scrolling with the mouse wheel)

and an already discussed feature req : the ability to load/save an entire timeliner state (xml) even if copy/paste works between patches, it could be easier to have some kind of templates/project loading…

#7

Show went Ok but it nearly didn’t! Really rally need a lock per track, managed to right clck in the automata track and scale the whole timeline had some frantic editing to do to make it right…
An undo would have saved me some stress! Also managed to delete a track without noticing had to manually add the keys from a bu, copy and paste would have helped there too! So number 1 undo!
2 lock 3 copy and paste would be my top requests!
I think I may do some more experiments to see if I can make my use of timeliner easier, next time I’ll use multiple timelines for sections of the performance I think, probably in individual subpatches to make backing them up easier too…

#8

ai cat and circuit,

thanks for your valueable feedback. here are some fixes:

  • removing any pin (including Automata) now needs confirmation (to prevent accidental removal of all keyframes on a pin)
  • snapping (via pressning CTRL while moving keyframes) now works also towards the timebar/playhead and keeps all selected keyframes in their relative positions as one would expect
  • two new modes: “jump” and “follow” that will jump to get the timebar into view or have it centered all the time
  • there is a new output (hidden by default) returning all automata states as spread
  • ctrl+clicking a keyframe now toggles selection. alt+selection-rectangle removes keys from selection

not sure about:

is that timeliner related? or how at all?

can you elaborate on that? general idea and specific usecase…

related?

thats actually already possible. bit tricky though…you need to clickdrag the pin between the collapse-button and its name…see?

up for a test? join us on IRC!

#9

hi joreg,
thanks

#10

total svn newbie but i’ld like to test the new Timeliner, so
when trying to access
http://vvvv.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/vvvv/AddonsCore/trunk/Nodes/Animation/Timeliner/
i get a “Repository moved permanently : '/viewvc/vvvv…, please relocate”
with both tortoise and tortoise firefox add-on
ps: i try to replace the viewvc with svn but no luck

#11

you don’t need to compile yourself. just come to IRC…

#12

Cool :)

seeing the difference between ’ and " is tricky, especialy as this pc doesn’t make a ’ until you press the key twice and then you get 2, dont ask me why! :S

This was me trying to use setpatch to add keyframes to timeliner, didn’t seem to work, but the pc I was using was unfamiliar, and the keyboard wasn’t helping me work out why setpatch didn’t work, should it work in principle?

I’m just updating things now with my own * key and manual key frame dropping, but a realtime marker drop, or automata key with default to next, would be really good.

Here I was trying to get time positions as the audio track is playing (driving the timeliner time) so hitting * was queing the time so that afterwards I could manually create automata keys to use as track markers. It would be nice to be able to drop automata keys directly into the timeline as the track plays so you can mark salient points of the music.

thats actually already possible. bit tricky though…you need to clickdrag the pin between the collapse-button and its name…see?
I did manage this once and then couldn’t work out how I did it! :P

An undo and a lock button are still top of my list though hehehe

Can’t come check it out yet, got my girlfriend here for a rather too rare visit! Maybe the weekend :)

#13

ja i think it wouldn’t work…anyway inserting a keyframe via key should be possible…also the lock. we’ll see.

#14

…still very missing UNDO
also would be good:
lock/unlock feature of single track
hide/visible feature of single track
ability to select keyframes AND (at least two) automata states and move the whole sequence along timeline. (+copy &paste also would be great)
shortkeys for:

  1. moving keyframes timeline -wise ONLY, preserving changing of values
  2. moving keyframes value-wise ONLY, preserving changing of time
    …
    perhaps i’m missing smthg…one ColorPin serving spread of 4 values? …can I animate spread of values with one track? e.g. 3D vector for light. if yes, how to change SliceCount of ValuePin?
    is there workaround to avoid dozens of tracks with just couples of keyframes?
    @cat:
    did you ever try nesting timelines, kind of pre-compose layers in AE:
    Timeline_A is running and starting Timeline_B(separate PLAY/Pause mode), while (additionally) OnBang_starting_Timeline_C etc. is there some limitations?
    dimi
#15

hey, sory for snipping into this discussion late …

I just had an expansive project based around timeliner as well. An hour long piece with 15 scenes, and I ended up using timeliner much less than I wanted to, because of its unergonomic use. Some comments from my side:

  • I find navigating the timeline hard and unintuitve. Zooming and panning it at the same time is rarely the smoothest way of readjusting your view. The thing is, that in a long piece, you work on different magnitudes of scale, you might have only two keyframes in one hour, or 20 in 10 seconds. Navigating from one to the other view is a hassle. I always ended up seeing unrelevant parts of the timeline, if not a completely lost area, more than once. I think,just as for the range of each pin with min and max values, it would make sense to set a min range and max range to the time, that limits the view on the timeline. Also I like the Aftereffects timeline approach of moving the In- and Outpoints of the visible area. Sometimes good old scrollbars on the sides would even do a better job. I ended up having the timeline pulled really long in a patch window, scrolling through it by pulling the patch position outside, instead of the timeliner.

  • Step, Linear, and Cubic interpolation modes are too limited. I’ve requested that in the timeliner page before - I think an output pin of the (normalized?) distance to the previous and next keyframe would be a first help to code one’s own interpolation methods. Bezier curves would obviously be awesome.

  • Changes to a boygrouped timeliner aren’t transmitted. In my case every client had it’s own timeliner and ran off MTC, thus making the system immune to server breakdown / hangs.

  • Spreaded Time In, to sample at multiple positions

I second the others on Undo, Copy & Paste, Recording to timeline, Snapping, Aligment.

Cheers and thanks anyways for an already great tool

Eno

#16

+1 for a timescale slider like afx has. i agree with eno. navigation is tricky just with the mouse. scrollbars are cool.

#17

can the zero point be marked more striking? black bold instead grey?

#18

off topic but: this would be an auxiliary feature for the Automata node as well.

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