Well, PureData and Reaktor were already there since the 90’s.
I didn’t mention PureData/MaxMSP because I would say it truly is in an earlier generation. But also something vvvv beta improved upon vs their ‘everything is a bang’ paradigm.
Reaktor I would say is comparable with vvvv, just a few years before.
Nevermind…
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Nevermind…
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Well said @tobyk also regarding
On the community side I would like to see more sharing of working media arts patches
People need to post patches instead of screenshots more. It was fundamental to early beta, that people shared patches, so you could see how thing go wrong, and then have patches that fix them. Its all very well looking at a picture, but inspection the patch is super useful for understanding behind the scenes, the thinks you don’t know (that many older users might just take for granted) I’ve have said a few times in element chat, I think forums beat web2.0 chat, structured threads with titles work better than 1 chat with branches. Not that chat isn’t useful too, but it has meant that instead of a lot of people having an eye on the forums to help out, its all mushed up in the chat, even if the website does keep giving the devs grief! :D
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Nevermind…
I would like to see how many people has changed their minds in 10 years.
Obviously quite interesting and still super relevant thread.
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+10000 making everything have a cool help patch
I guess its mainly about resources, how many people can write tutorials etc.
Core tech in vvvv is better than TD, but TD is faster to make cool preset things.
To compare it to notch houdini etc youre missing a bunch of users that only do DMX for example. 14 years ago most of the media arts tasks were championed in performance by 4v, now that performance is not an issue, focus should be to make it super easy for new people to start using it.
I’m not saying that’s not happening, just saying thats the most important thing.
2.4 What do you think VVVV has lost along the way from Beta to Gamma?
It has lost the improvisational feeling of connect anything everywhere and see what happens. Now with datatypes surrounds, F9, etc. You have to think more.
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RE: The pro economics
I’ve lost many/most clients to unreal now, and I think that needs thinking about. My thoughts then are much as they are now, we need to help and share more each with other, otherwise it will just become even more niche. vvvv has gone from 90% of my work, to a hobby/ mostly personal projects and that saddens me.
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@catweasel Sorry to hear that, i think this is a common feeling right now in the community.
I totally agree on helping each others, and an essential way to do this is to offer designer oriented tools and libraries to the community and eficient ways to teach & learn, in order to be more competitive in our work against similar platforms.
Right now this part has been made mostly by very kind contributors and companies, and I really hope the next steps in vvvv group development go in this direction, not just relying on private contributors.
Other important part here in order to get more jobs, is the visibility in social media (sorry but Mastodon doesn’t count here), this has been done mostly by motivated vvvv artists and designers.
The more artists involved, the more visible vvvv will be, and more companies will be interested…
I’m suffering the migration to Unreal and Unity aswell, this is why i’m trying to focus my current work more on non screen based projects and software development for artists and designers.
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Nevermind…
Tooll presented at, I think, NODE15 festival. In my experience, the vvvv community has always been quite open to other tools.
The main thing that draws me to vvvv, and have since 2006, the ability to interface to more or less anything.
while vvvv is quite capable of creating wonderful 3D graphics, it is for me and my use case not the main attraction.
Of course I have areas I would like to see improved, mainly audio and video handling, as the creeps up in my work more and more.
For that a robust non-Realtime way of working with video and audio would be nice.
I do know that I am moving at the edge of what vvvv is designed to do, but I think it would open up for doing more interesting stuff.
So while I am all for and love seeing FUSE and more fancy 3D is evolving beautifully, I also think having the AV integrator or whatever you can call that, in mind is important.
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oh, I forgot, the most important thing about vvvv, is the community!
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We know Thomas personally and met a few times and had a chat. At the time (long before tooll3) his ideas weren’t a perfect fit but he’s a great person to talk to and I am very happy for him that his latest ideas work out so well. I also like his rigorous focus on UX, which is his favorite topic to talk about.
However, tooll3 is more focused on creating visuals. As sunep mentioned, vvvv is also often perceived as being made for visuals, but it is mainly a tool to realize media projects, long-term installations, and software. And it also just so happens to be the world’s most advanced visual programming language with the best implementation of state hot-reload that currently exists (to my knowledge). Props to tobyk’s thoughts on that.
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Nevermind…
many courses seem to be useful to learn essential cool stuff (fuse) but are paid, thats a barrier for many people.
Oh oh … thats a big big big thing. i will make it short as i m new to gamma, with a very very bad feedback for the beginner winter session, but i have already written everything i have to say directly to node institute.
Aside VL language complexity, i m quiete sure that pain we all have in commun coming from beta is due to one principal thing: the non lisibility of certains parts of Gamma, that are hidden, and some missing parts
HIDDEN:
Declaration and creating variables functions is for me the leak: declaring class and records and especialy their inners like operations is completely hidden from the definition sheet, the top view. You have a record, you are obligated to enter inside of it to see what it handles, and so on. To look on the left, to activate desactovate from hidden place…
We have a visual programming language but WE CANT have a global overview/map of the declaration work, especially if [different levels of complexity like modeles runtimes etc…] (Model-Runtime-Editor design pattern - Model-Runtime - 1/6) . Having a look to the global application visually ( showing variables, functions, classes, process, operations etc…) in one glance is necessary.
We could imagine a special key to see input outputs of classes and records as “pins”?
The VL patch window also is not handy. You have only one at a time, you cant sort them, you cant put a color background to it to make clear classement when working on the different levels in front of your window. I m personnaly loose with the actual version when searching an already opened process. Definition sheet should be all the time accessible at the same place. We could have a window like the help for looking quickly inside all the stuff a record contains, and open another window to compare in quick glance.
Less crucial, but… and finally in the node inspektor, hidden nodes ( i understand filtering need, but when you are searching for something that should exists but not appears is quite limiting yourself with a brand new nugget installled, and there is quiet a long time loosed on that one for me).
TEMPLATES
Other thing: Complexity, related completly to C sharp way. Building Templates could be really a great help for users. Templates for classical object handling. There is so much parameters, different nodes to just arrive to do it properly. I m sure there is certain pattern of pieces of software we could have an editor, building them ( with all the create-update-new Operation thing). Templates and sub templates. With a template creator for creating your personnal templates also. And calling them in click.
All is for me the question of things to be clear and visible. I have the impression there is something to create to give to the user a best access to Gamma, wich is really cryptic on certain sides. I mean building a simple app, and having to dive to complex manipulations to create the structure of your software, i believe that there should be something better to do than the actual front end.
Voilà for my feedback, and if a dev read at it, please believe, i m in it and yes, what a master piece !
Cheers, christoph
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There is the solution explorer, CTRL + J, do you mean that?
Nevermind…
Hello @Tonfilm, no i meaning more these, to see at a glance in kind of list Data types and Operations, to compare same from an upper level. Aka comparing in this example declarations from the model and the run time and seeing what is missing, what is not coherent.
The definition should be in a separate window, as there is many go-go back from it when working on the code of a process or a class.
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